There’s a hidden epidemic which is leading to low fertility, plummeting sex drives, and dull humans – the low testosterone epidemic! Shockingly, this affects both men and women (yes, women need way more testosterone than they realise, so listen for more on that later)!

Welcome back to ‘We Are Already Free,’ the podcast empowering down-to-earth seekers to feel, heal, and grow a more beautiful world. Join your host, Nathan Maingard, and guests that inspire and empower you with the tools, medicines, and practices you can use to remember that we are already free.

Introducing today’s expert guest, Dr. Thomas P Seager, CEO of the Morozko Ice Bath, and a leading light in the world of cold water therapy. His groundbreaking work offers a natural and invigorating approach to tackling this epidemic. Dr. Seager’s insights into the rejuvenating power of cold immersion therapy have transformed lives, offering hope and tangible results where modern medicine often falls short.

Today, we’re not just discussing cold showers; we’re unveiling a powerful, natural tool to combat low testosterone levels, a tool that’s as effective for women as it is for men. So, prepare to be chilled and thrilled as we explore this icy path to enhanced sexual health, fertility, and so much more.

We’re diving into these topics:

  1. Boosting Testosterone with Cold Immersion for both men and women (and why women need more testosterone than they generally realise)
  2. How Cold Immersion can improve Sexual Health and Fertility
  3. How cold exposure can help regulate thyroid function.
  4. Thomas’s remarkable and accidental discovery of how following cold immersion with exercise can lead to huge hormonal and physical benefits.
  5. The benefits of cold immersion for pregnant women, including pain relief
  6. And more…

Discover More from Dr. Seager

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Connect with Nathan Maingard


[00:00:00] Nathan Maingard: Welcome dear listener to we are already free the podcast empowering down to earth seekers to feel, heal and grow a more beautiful world. I'm your host Nathan Maingard joined gratefully by guests who inspire us with stories of liberation and empower us with the tools, medicines, and practices they have used to remember that we are already free.

[00:00:27] In today's episode, we're diving into a refreshing solution to a hidden epidemic, which is leading to low fertility, plummeting, sex drives, dull humans, and much worse. The low testosterone epidemic, affecting both men and women. And yes, women need way more testosterone than they realize. So listen, for more on that later in the episode.

[00:00:49] Imagine a world where boosting your vitality sex drive and fertility doesn't depend on some crappy surface level medical interventions, which have a gazillion side effects, but instead relies on a simple, yet profound embrace of nature's cold elements.

[00:01:04] Welcoming our dear return guest and expert Dr. Thomas P Seger, a leading light in the world of cold water therapy. His groundbreaking work offers a natural and invigorating approach to tackling this epidemic. Dr. Seeger's insights into the rejuvenating power of cold immersion therapy have transformed so many lives, offering hope and tangible results where modern medicine often falls short.

[00:01:30] Today, we're not just discussing cold showers. We're unveiling, a powerful natural tool to combat low testosterone levels, a tool that is effective for both men and for women. So prepare to be chilled and thrilled as we explore this icy path to enhanced sexual health, fertility, and so much more.

[00:01:49] We're diving into these topics, boosting testosterone with cold immersion for both men and women and why women need more testosterone than they generally realize. How cold immersion can improve sexual health and fertility. How cold exposure can help regulate thyroid function. Thomas's remarkable and accidental discovery of how following cold immersion with exercise can lead to huge hormonal and physical benefits. The benefits of cold immersion for pregnant women, including pain relief and. Of course heaps more.

[00:02:20] Dr. Thomas P Seger Is an associate professor in the school of sustainable engineering at Arizona state university. He is the founder of a new concept called self actual engineering. Seeger is CEO of Morozko forge ice bath company, and an expert in the use of ice baths for building metabolic and psychological resilience.

[00:02:39] If you're not quite ready to take the icy plunge, there's another way to wake up to a morning almost as revitalizing, with my five day morning practice challenge. Swap the groggy scroll for vitality and clarity kickstarting your day with aligned energy. It's not just about waking up. It's about awakening. Join me, invigorates your mornings and transform your days. Dive into the free five day morning practice challenge at A brief note and an apology. The final few minutes of our episode were lost due to a technical challenge, sorry to you, dear listener, and to Thomas.

[00:03:16] And I'm so grateful that we got 99.9% of this amazing dialogue with one of my favorite people. Dr. Thomas P Seger.

[00:03:25] So just a brief preface in that the way that I found you, I may have told the story last time, but it's coming up again strongly because a few years ago, I was getting into taking better care of my body for the first time, really as an adult, really stepping into that. Started ice baths for the first time and was running and doing some strength training.

[00:03:43] And I was trying to work out what's the best order. Is it better to do an ice bath then exercise or exercise then ice bath? And almost all the information I found at that time said ice baths for recovery. But I felt, I was like, that's, I feel like there's a missing piece here because it just feels so good to do the ice bath before.

[00:04:01] And also if it's helping me recover faster, isn't that taking away from some of the positive benefits, et cetera, et cetera. And you were the dude I found, like you were the one person at that time who was saying, you know, I did cold immersions and then this happened like cold immersion, then strength training.

[00:04:17] And you'd even found a study, I think from Japan, et cetera. So for the people listening right now who don't know much about this. You know or even those who think usually that it's training and then the cold immersion. Could you take us through your story of that process of discovering cold immersions then?

[00:04:35] Cold immersion then strength training what happened to you and why it's so important that more people know about this?

[00:04:42] Marker: How a 51 year old man got his testosterone so high that the Dr. thought he was juicing


[00:04:42] Thomas P Seager: Yeah. What happened to me was really an accident. When you think about ice baths almost everybody has some experience with some kind of cryotherapy. You put an ice pack on on a sore elbow or you used an ice bath to recover after a run and your high school football coach told you to get in the ice bath for your knees after a tough practice or something.

[00:05:08] We've always heard about using ice baths after exercise for recovery, but that's not what I was working on. I was going through a time in my life where I'd realized I hadn't taken care of myself. I had focused so much on raising my kids and on my family. I'd let my own health go to crap. And because I was separated from my wife and we were headed for divorce, I was super motivated to get myself in shape cause I got to go back out on the dating market after 20 years.

[00:05:43] And what's that going to be like? So you can imagine all these different things going on in my head. Well, I went down to the blood lab in Arizona where I live. You can order a lot of your own blood tests. And I said, there's certain things I want to get checked out. Check the whole male health panel. Give me everything I need to know about myself.

[00:06:03] I'm 51 years old. And when the report came back, there was this big, you know, red exclamation mark next to my prostate specific antigen. So it's called PSA. And I don't know, it was over seven, whatever the units are. It was the exclamation mark that worried me. Out of range, too high, the lab report said. Now at this point, you're supposed to go to a doctor.

[00:06:29] And you're supposed to have the doctor do a prostate exam and suggest to you another test and maybe a biopsy and all this other crap that they do. And that was the last thing that I wanted. I went, of course, straight online and I had to learn about the PSA. Turns out it's not a very reliable test. It indicates inflammation in the prostate, but it's not necessarily an indication of cancer.

[00:06:53] But an idea gets inside your head, and it's hard to get those thoughts out. It said, you know, these are the other symptoms that you should look for. Are you having difficulty urinating? Is your urination infrequent? Like, I don't know how I pee. Like, I didn't, like, I became so self conscious about what was going on with me that I couldn't sort it all out.

[00:07:16] So I decided I was going to do something that men almost never do. And that is talk to other men about their health. I rang up some of my close friends and they said things like, well, yeah, I had a biopsy. It was terrible, but it turned out I was okay. Another guy said, well, I had my prostate out six months ago.

[00:07:37] I thought, well, we're close friends. You, you never even told me. Guys don't talk anywhere near Enough about their health because we tend to kind of overlook these things. Any little minor ache or pain You know We we don't even want to deal with and there isn't anything that we can't dismiss at least in front of other guys There's a minor ache or pain. So I talked to older men, younger men and every story that I heard felt like a nightmare to me. I said there's no way I'm going in to see a medical doctor about this thing.

[00:08:11] It'd been maybe 15 years since I had a prostate exam and I'm not getting another one. What I'm going to do instead is I'm going to double down on the keto. I'd been watching what I ate or I'd lost a lot of weight. I went from two 50 to this time round two Oh five to 10. That's great. But I said, I'm going to go hard on the keto and I'm going to go hard on the ice baths.

[00:08:31] And I had this idea that the ice baths good and the keto is good for inflammation. And maybe this is going to help me manage that PSA prostate cancer. If it is, it's very slow moving. I got time. So I did this for three months and then I went back to the lab, same thing, male health panel. My PSA went from over seven down to 1.8. And at my age, anything less than four is considered ordinary and no big deal. So you can imagine how relieved I was. There was another red exclamation mark and this one was next to my testosterone, which I hadn't been paying any attention to at all. In the previous report, it was somewhere around 700, 720, and you know, everyone would've said, Hey, you're doing great.

[00:09:20] 720, 51 years old. Congratulations. This one came back 1180. And that got me thinking some more. Well, now that my PSA was under control and I was less self conscious, I actually did. I went to go visit my urologist. And I said, Hey, look, doc, I'm doing great, right? You know, it's all set now. We, we got no problem.

[00:09:46] And doc said, well, I think maybe we should have one more test. He didn't tell me what it was about. He just wrote up an order for a test that I couldn't get myself. I didn't know what it was until the results came back. It was for luteinizing hormone. And my results came back with another red exclamation mark.

[00:10:07] Out of range, too high. Well, what the heck is luteinizing hormone? My urologist didn't give two craps about my prostate. He was looking at my testosterone results and he's like, that's not possible. This guy's juicing. I need to know whether he's natural or whether he's taken some kind of, I can't treat this man if he's going to, you know, take his testosterone supplements on the sly without me.

[00:10:31] The luteinizing hormone is a signaling agent that is, it signals your gonads to produce the testosterone. If your T is high and your luteinizing is low, everybody knows. You're on some kind of a juice. Well, mine was off the charts. I never heard from my urologist again. He didn't ask, well, professor Seager, how are you doing this?

[00:10:52] You know, he's about my age. He's just like, yeah, whatever. He, that was it. That's the end of our relationship. But here I am sitting on this incredibly, it turns out it's not so incredible because I've heard from so many other men who have replicated this results, but at the time I thought incredibly high results.

[00:11:08] Marker: How a 51 year old overweight divorcee boosted his testosterone to the levels of an oversexed 19 year old...naturally!


[00:11:08] Thomas P Seager: I got the T levels of an oversexed 19 year old and my prostate is fine. And the conventional wisdom used to be that those two antagonize one another. They used to put men who are trying to manage an inflamed prostate on low T. That is suppress their testosterone under the theory that testosterone is anabolic.

[00:11:29] And it causes the growth of tissues. And if there's cancer in there, you want to get away from the testosterone. Well, it turns out that was a misconception. The science since then has evolved. There's nothing, you can have high T and low PSA, a high testosterone level and a healthy prostate at the same time, even at my age.

[00:11:49] Marker: The single study about why exercise after ice bath raises testosterone


[00:11:49] Thomas P Seager: But the big question is, how did this happen? You gotta go back to me, getting in the ice bath, doing my keto, coming out. I had it on my porch, and I live in Phoenix. There's no such thing as cold showers here. The tap water is too warm. And I wasn't motivated by exercise recovery. I was motivated by metabolism.

[00:12:15] So when I got out, I was cold. And what do you do when you're cold? I do my jumping jacks, I do my push ups, and I walk to my classes on campus at ASU, which is about a mile and a half. Doesn't take a lot of exercise, Nathan. When I went to the library, I found a study from Japan, 1991. They took young Japanese men.

[00:12:36] Like early twenties, typical college student cohort. And at first they put them on the exercise bike and then they put them in the ice bath. Testosterone went way down. Luteinizing hormone went way down. And there's some other studies that corroborate this, that if you're going to use cold for recovery, it can help with delayed muscle soreness. It can help you, feel better. But it doesn't help you gain. It doesn't help your muscles and it doesn't help your performance. And so that's exactly what they were testing. Bicycle, cold bath sorry, cold stimulation. They really only went up to the elbow, testosterone down, luteinizing hormone down.

[00:13:15] But then these Japanese guys, they reversed it. They said, well, if we do the cold stim and then we do the cycle, I wonder what happens. Testosterone goes through the roof. Luteinizing hormone through the roof. I didn't know that study. I had just done it because I was uncomfortable and I was scared and I needed to do something.

[00:13:37] But after I found that study, I said, well, maybe this explains it. Since 1991 there have been a number of other studies and we're talking, you know, Italian rugby team. This, so this is all Super athletes trying to look at what will boost their performance and speed their recovery and people have mixed it up, done it a lot of different ways and the results are difficult to sort through. But they're consistent.

[00:14:08] When men do the pre cool, that is their workout, when they do their cold exposure before their exercise, they're going to see a boost in testosterone. They're going to see improvement in anabolic gains. It is exactly the opposite of what your old football coach told you you should be doing.

[00:14:28] So I wrote an article about it. Meanwhile my partner, Jason said, well, I got to try this. He was in the six hundreds. He's maybe 12 or 13 years younger than me and he got himself up into the nine hundreds. So now we have N equals two. The article, you know, it stood up there on our Morozco forge website.

[00:14:48] And it was just, you know, this is what happened to me. And this is what the science says, maybe explains it. But if you remember last winter, this is the end of 2022 liver King finally got nabbed as if, I mean, everybody knew liver King was on roids, you know, like why even bother deny it? Nobody cares.

[00:15:10] You know, you're very entertaining. And so people tune into your Instagram channel because there's some kind of a circus clown element of it. And because some of the advice isn't bad at all. Sure. Eat your liver. He was for a moment there disgraced. And Joe Rogan, it got his attention. He had Derek more plates, more dates on his Joe Rogan show.

[00:15:32] And they were talking about testosterone and Joe said, you know, I've been reading this article. There's a guy who says you should do your ice bath before your exercise. Well, Derek hadn't heard anything like that. Derek knows more about testosterone and hormones and working out and muscle like in his little finger than I have in my entire library of information.

[00:15:53] But he hadn't heard anything like this. Next podcast, David Goggins comes on and Joe says, have you ever heard anything like this? And Goggins is like, look, I used to be a Navy SEAL and there is nothing that will make you question your life faster than cold water. And Joe says, well, let me show you what I mean.

[00:16:14] He pulls up an Instagram post. He goes, there's this guy. He didn't say who I was. He just scrolled through the post. He read it out to the world and I started getting emails, direct messages, you know, people reaching out, people who had paused Joe Rogan's video, zoomed in on the Instagram scene to see S E A G E R T P, you know, my handle like they gotta Sherlock Holmes this stuff to find out who I am.

[00:16:45] And they said, what are you doing? Well, I sent him to the article. You know, this is exactly What I do. Then Nathan, just yesterday, I got another one. People find me on all different places. This one is on LinkedIn. And I like to think I'm easy to find, but evidently people are really working for it.

[00:17:02] Marker: The cure to the low testosterone epidemic


[00:17:02] Thomas P Seager: This guy's a software engineer. He says, I think you found the cure to the low testosterone epidemic and he's right. Testosterone levels in the United States have been dropping for decades to the point where 25 year old men today have the testosterone that was typical of a 65 year old man just 20 years ago.

[00:17:23] It's terrible. So this guy's a software engineer. He's not a bodybuilder or some kind of Instagram model. He says, "I think you found the cure to the low T epidemic. Got my lab results from our functional medicine doctor and my testosterone is 1060 at 43 years old." He says, "my wife is pregnant with our third child and it makes sense that I got her pregnant without much trying, laugh out loud."

[00:17:49] He's he's just the most recent one. There are a dozen guys one 61 year old man in Massachusetts, he says, "I was on TRT." He contacted me over Twitter He said I read about your protocol. I didn't even know I had a protocol. Nathan, I was just writing, you know, this is what happened to me. He said, I decided to give it a shot.

[00:18:09] I go for a swim. It's the wintertime and there's a pond near my house. And then, you know, he's 61. What's his workout? He goes, I power walk home. That's it. He's doing like the soccer mom walk after he jumps in the pond. He's not going to the gym and he's not, you know, downloading Schwarzenegger videos or anything like that.

[00:18:31] It's just a brisk walk. He's up to 1200. He's no longer doing the TRT. He's through the roof. What it tells us is that what our doctors consider normal for male testosterone is unhealthy. I don't want to be normal. I want to be healthy. And just because everybody else has some kind of depressed testosterone level doesn't mean I'm doing fine, you know, when I'm down in the 600 or the 700, I want to be up there where ancestrally, evolutionary, where my body is supposed to be.

[00:19:09] And, and where I feel good. So I recently retested and sure enough, I came back over a thousand, which is great for me. I'm fine. It doesn't need to be any higher. My girlfriend has told me, please don't do anything that would increase your testosterone any further. She's, she tells me she's tired and it's okay.

[00:19:28] But if I'm a, You know, if I'm up over a thousand, I'm a 57 year old fat man. And if I can do it, then it can be done by almost anyone, by a younger guy like you, by other guys who are my age. This is now that now that we understand how to get it done. Low T is optional. It might take some time depending upon where you're starting, but the gains that people are telling me that they're making are phenomenal.

[00:20:00] Nathan Maingard: Well, I will definitely link to some of those results. Cause I've seen on your Instagram where you share screenshots, people are sending you of like their results. Cause that's obviously the thing when I, when I first found you, it was you and your partner who had done this, and had these results. And then, as you said, since the Joe Rogan thing, it's been amazing for me.

[00:20:18] Like, I feel like I had this little secret that I've been telling everyone I know about, but I don't have the kind of voice that Joe Rogan does, but then I see you pop up on Joe Rogan and I'm like, wow, I got goosebumps. I was like. Oh my gosh, finally, like people are now going to know what Thomas's secret, you know, like this is amazing.

[00:20:35] And so I will definitely share in the show notes for people who want to just go see some of the other results because I haven't actually had my tea tested ever that I know I haven't. And I've just known that how much, how good it feels and has felt to have an ice bath and then do some kind of strength training in my case, generally kettlebells.

[00:20:53] But yeah, I just, I'm just so happy that the word is getting out there and that's why I wanted to do this episode to really hone in and focus and give someone like one place they could come to, to just hear more of your story and, and understand a little more deeply why this might be good for them.

[00:21:07] So there's a, there's a piece here. I know we've been talking about men so far, and you said something to me also a while ago that Women often don't have enough testosterone now, so I'd like to it's like a multi part question, which is Is this also a good idea for women to do an ice bath and then some kind of strength training?

[00:21:23] If so, why and what what effect does it have? I suppose you'll have mainly anecdotal Stories or evidence so far but like yeah, what what's the benefits for women if any or what should how should women approach this?

[00:21:35] Thomas P Seager: It turns out women are different than men in many respects. What a surprise.

[00:21:40] Nathan Maingard: Yeah

[00:21:41] Thomas P Seager: Men make their testosterone in their testicles. The testicles are outside the body. Women make their testosterone in their ovaries. The ovaries are inside the body. And so the anatomy of the different sexes suggests that they might respond to a cold environment in different ways, but it's never really been investigated.

[00:22:03] There is one study. And it was sort of accidental. This was a study of an, again, undergraduate psychology cohort. They had men and women in it and they were using the cold presser test, which is cold stimulation, not whole body cold immersion. They're just taking the non dominant hand and putting it in a bowl of ice water. This is a classic validated psychological stress test.

[00:22:28] Then they would measure cortisol and other things in the saliva looking for a stress response. They happened to measure testosterone. The women got a big testosterone boost, but the men did not. What does this suggest? Perhaps women, for reasons of whatever their anatomy is, don't need to do the exercise.

[00:22:51] Men do. There's no question about that. But it may be that cold stimulation for women results in a testosterone boost independent of exercise. We don't really know because the only study that I've ever found, and it's young women. The the dominant sex hormone, everybody knows this. The dominant sex horn in men is testosterone. It is the lust hormone.

[00:23:17] What most people don't know is that the dominant sex hormone in women is testosterone. It is the lust hormone. When a woman gets her labs back, testosterone and estrogen will both be reported on the lab if that's what she's testing and they're in different units. So the estrogen number is higher and it makes the woman think she must have more estrogen, but she doesn't.

[00:23:39] When you convert the units, you discover that women have three or four more times the testosterone in their blood when they're healthy, then they have estrogen. Women should be watching their testosterone levels too, especially after menopause. And they have never been studied in this respect, at least not with respect to cold exposure.

[00:24:00] There are no, in the United States, no FDA approved treatments for low T in women. So if a clinician has a menopausal woman, and the most common indication is low libido because testosterone is the lust hormone. And this, this patient comes to the clinician and says, you know, I don't feel a lot of energy. I don't feel myself. I have no interest in sex. And the clinician is like, well, you know, your testosterone is a little low. We want to see if we can bump that up. The only option in the U S that the clinician has is to take a male protocol and somehow figure out how to adapt it for women. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the clinician could instead say, I think you need a little cold stim. I think, you know, it's going to be good for your metabolism. It'll boost your T level. Tell your husband to watch out.

[00:24:51] Because when you can do it naturally, endogenously inside your own body, some of these so called side effects, some of these adverse other effects. They don't become a problem because your body is a holistic system. You cannot just change one thing without changing everything else.

[00:25:17] And somebody like Derek from more plates, more dates, he knows the deleterious risks of doing exogenous T. A lot of the guys in the bodybuilding world know it way better than I would. Imagine what happens to a menopausal woman who's taken, who's on TRT that was designed for men, but tried to adapt for her so much better if we could just get her in the cold for a little bit and she's allowed to exercise.

[00:25:45] It would be wonderful. Then hopefully women will start to write to me and they will say, Professor Seager, this is what happened. And then we can share more knowledge among the ladies too.

[00:25:56] Nathan Maingard: Yeah. It's such an interesting thing. I remember when you first told me that, that the amount of testosterone women have in their blood is so much more than they're aware, more than estrogen like that. So I'm glad you brought that up. Again, it's kind of like. It's just mind blowing the level of all these different things.

[00:26:08] So you mentioned something a bit earlier around sexual health and around, you know, obviously libido, the lust hormone, et cetera. And I'm wondering, cause I'm, I'm sure I've seen you talk about this before, but I'd love to hear for anyone listening around pregnancy and sexual health in general. And how cold immersion and whether it's just cold immersion or also, I mean, I suppose the cold immersion followed by the exercise for men also makes sense, but just like what kind of effects have you seen on people who are trying to get pregnant or improve sexual health, et cetera?

[00:26:37] .

[00:26:37] Marker: cold immersion for sexual health and fertility[00:26:37] Marker: Cold water immersion for improving pregnancy and birth outcomes


[00:26:37] Thomas P Seager: Let's talk about the women first, we'll stick with them for now. There are a number of epidemiological studies that suggest that cold exposure is healthy, especially if you’re trying to conceive. There's a fertility boost that women will experience and also during pregnancy, whereas heat is counter to fertility and associated with poor birth outcomes.

[00:27:05] So this is what we see in the data. The question is what are the mechanisms that would explain that? Well, pregnancy is probably the most demanding metabolic thing that a human being can go through. Because you know, the woman will say, well, I'm eating for two. And it's true, but you're doing everything for two.

[00:27:27] Pregnancy is a state of increasing insulin resistance. As the pregnancy matures, as the woman gestates for longer and longer, her insulin resistance will naturally increase. When it gets out of control, as it does with a lot of women in the United States, it will show up as certain disorders like preeclampsia or eclampsia.

[00:27:52] So this is a metabolic disorder that causes inflammation. A lot of women have swollen ankles, for example. They have difficulty sleeping. And this is an indication that their metabolism is being overtaxed.

[00:28:05] Cold exposure increases their insulin sensitivity, reduces their inflammation, allows them to sleep. And it will, in the case of preeclampsia, the risk of preterm birth is very high. The cold exposure may allow them to carry the baby to term, or at least longer. And there's some good stuff on this.

[00:28:28] So I contacted Dr. Josephine Warsack. She's a PhD, not a medical doctor, but she's in Germany. And she was, for a time, the only woman in Germany certified by Wim Hof and his method.

[00:28:40] And her sister was pregnant, sister was going right into the cold. And so I said, she'd post about it on Instagram, but you know, what's your opinion? And Josephine said, well, I just conceived myself and I'm going to continue my cold practice, not the breathing. She says, do not hyperventilate. Pregnant women should ignore that aspect of the Wim Hof method.

[00:29:01] And she says, and I suspended my cold practice when I wanted to conceive. I was a little concerned about an overactive immune system, which can affect implantation of the zygote. And she said, so I stopped it, but now that I'm pregnant, I'm going to continue. And it's for metabolic reasons. She had a great birth.

[00:29:21] So I went into it a little further here, a former student of mine, she was pregnant. Her husband has type one diabetes and they were aware of insulin and metabolism. She said, I'd like to give it a try. I talked to my medical doctor. He said, it's fine. She did a couple of plunges. She wrote to me, I wrote, she's on my articles.

[00:29:38] And she said, this is wonderful. I'm sleeping. The inflammation is down. I can walk again. She had wonderful birth outcomes going a little bit further. I believe that our ancient ancestors were not just accustomed to cold water immersion, but they were selected for it. The reason I say that is because the oldest fossil records are in East Africa and we don't know exactly, but since those are the oldest fossil records, we're going to go with this hypothesis that Homo sapiens emerged from East Africa and it doesn't really matter whether they did or they didn't, but because people think East Africa, that's equatorial, it must be very warm.

[00:30:20] You know, not everybody needs cold exposure, right? But where does Wim Hoff take his trainees? It's right up Mount Kilimanjaro. which is on the equator in East Africa. There are three modern glaciers at the equator in East Africa today. What do you think it was like during the ice age? In other words, human beings experienced what's called a population bottleneck.

[00:30:46] When, before we took over the planet, and we were down to several thousand homo sapiens, they lived this sort of marginal existence between the glacier and the ocean, the development of the human brain, this enormous organ that makes us human, requires food resources that are rich in Omega three, rich in DHA.

[00:31:12] And where were they going to get them? From shellfish, from fin fish, from the water. And so, why do we walk upright? It's not so that we can see over the grasslands of Africa. It's so that we can wade into the water and collect the shellfish that we're going to eat for dinner, that is going to feed our developing brains. It's because we're in the water.

[00:31:38] This is why our nostrils point down instead of out like the chimps and the bonobos do. This is why we don't have any hair. So we're streamlined for diving. This is why we have subcutaneous fat. I got plenty of that. Whereas a bonobo might have 4 percent body fat total. You know that I'm sitting here at like 18, 19 percent, like a lot of other guys my age.

[00:32:01] We are aquatic. We are not just accustomed to the water, but evolved to expect it. And that water was cold. So the question is, where would our ancient grandmothers have gone to give birth? They would have gone in the water. Because passing the enormous infant human brain through a narrow pelvis that is built for upright walking, that is no easy task.

[00:32:29] This is the dilemma of the early homo sapien. Now, my wife, when she gave birth, she labored in the water because we read about it. We read about how it would reduce the pain of contractions. And I've talked with other women about this. And there's such a thing as a water birth. That is babies that are born underwater.

[00:32:47] And it's a very frightening thing for a woman who hasn't talked to other women about it, but what, how am I baby breathe, for example. Until you realize that human babies are born with the instinct to swim. Not to crawl, but to swim. The... when the cold water hits the baby that is born in the cold water, it says, welcome to the world.

[00:33:12] And all the instinctive responses kick in that are healthy. So the women who are doing the water births, they almost never do them in the cold. I have found one account of one woman, in one book, who she belonged to an outdoor swimming club in London. And when it was time for her to give birth, she's like, well, I'm going to do it in the cold water. She had terrific birth outcomes. And it's the only anecdote that I've found. So I'm buying a whole bunch of other books.

[00:33:42] The cold exposure, particularly cold water immersion, is, generally speaking, this isn't medical advice for any specific woman, but generally speaking, associated with better birth outcomes.

[00:33:54] Why? I'm hypothesizing: because we are aquatic creatures and our ancient grandmothers gave birth to our ancestors in the cold water because of the analgesic or the pain relieving effects, because it eases the contractions and because it is the safest place for them to labor. When you, as a pregnant woman, go back into the cold, you are returning to the ancestor, or the evolutionary roots, in which we were all evolved.

[00:34:25] So I encourage pregnant women to incorporate some cold plunge, incorporate some ice bath into whatever their practice is. They can use the same breathing that they're learning in their Bradley Method class or their Lamaze class. They can use the same breathing in the cold bath and it will again help calm them down.

[00:34:44] Marker: What about cold immersion for better erections, more fertility, and an improvd sex life. Cold immersion, nature's viagra for men.


[00:34:44] Thomas P Seager: But what about the guys? Well, guys don't make anywhere near the metabolic investment in reproduction that women do. But remember I said the guys don't talk anywhere near enough to one another. One of the things that guys are never going to talk about is how's your dick working. Like they'll talk about their cars or their computer or their phone.

[00:35:07] Look at this thing. I'm just gotten a, you know, here, I can put it in this mode of it, but they're not going to talk about their... the function of their reproductive organs, to be more clinical. But guess what? Women talk about this all the time. Like all the time about this guy and that guy and all their experiences.

[00:35:26] So as I've gotten to, to hear from women about their experiences with men, it turns out this, this epidemic of low T is also associated with an epidemic of erectile dysfunction. And there can be a lot of complex reasons, but most guys have figured out, maybe not my guys, my age, but younger guys have figured out that Viagra will overcome any physiological obstacles to sexual performance. And so they're taking it. How does it work?

[00:36:01] To maintain an erection, the circulatory system must engorge the penis with blood. The pressure inside the penis is supplied from the heart, but there's a lot, you know, the heart beats and there's a lot of passageways, a lot of vasculature that the blood has to go through before it reaches the penis. And so the blood vessels that feed the penis, they have to dilate to allow more pressure in. How do they dilate? Inside the blood vessels, there's a single layer of cells called the endothelia. So these are endothelial cells. They produce nitric oxide. And that signals the smooth muscles around the blood vessels to relax. Let the blood through.

[00:36:45] When those endothelial cells become insulin resistant, because they rely on their mitochondria for the energy to produce nitric oxide, and when they become insulin resistant, they can't produce the NO. Without NO, no vasodilation. No vasodilation means no blood flow. No blood flow means no hardon. Viagra overcomes the insulin resistance in the endothelial cells so that their mitochondria can get the energy they need to produce nitric oxide, to induce the vasodilation.

[00:37:20] How does cold exposure work? Cold exposure improves your insulin sensitivity. And so cold exposure, it's not the exact same mechanism, but it promotes improved circulation by, not overcoming the insulin resistance, but by fixing the insulin resistance in the endothelial cells. This is remarkable. Once you start these conversations you realize that the experience of the men that are talking to me about it exactly dovetails with this scientific explanation.

[00:37:53] So I will get direct messages or emails from people who say, Dr. Seager, you know, I'm doing your protocol and my T levels are through the roof and it's wonderful. And I get all this energy when I pre cool my workout and it's really cool, but I just have one question. Am I supposed to be waking up in the middle of the night with a hard on?

[00:38:11] And I go, yes, you are. That is exactly what happens. Because you have fixed your mitochondria. You have fixed your endothelial cells. You have fixed the blood flow to your penis. So not only have you like bumped up your lust hormone, but you've bumped up your, your sex function. Your physiology is now better prepared to perform.

[00:38:34] Now, this is a revelation, in two respects. One is, you don't need the Viagra. You need to fix your metabolism. And if Viagra is what is working for guys, I don't really mean to crap on it, because I'd rather have them get what they need to live full lives. What I'm suggesting is try the cold exposure, try a little exercise and see if you can stimulate naturally in your body what Viagra is stimulating outside the body.

[00:39:06] But the other revelation is new indications, new options for use of Viagra. It turns out it is also used for treating infants who suffered from hypoxic brain injury. So this again, this is a birth outcome. Suppose the the umbilical cord, it gets wrapped around the child's neck or the blood flow is cut off the, for whatever reason, the infant brain is not getting enough oxygen. It will suffer what's called hypoxic low oxygen brain injury. There are two treatments for it. Cold water immersion is one, and as pharmaceuticals sort of overtook the, the more naturalistic approaches, nobody did, not since the fifties or the sixties, has anybody done, cold water immersion to treat hypoxic brain injury in infants.

[00:39:57] But what are they using now? Viagra. And for the same reason. It overcomes insulin resistance. It helps the cells in the brain. People think that Viagra acts on the dick, but it's no it's systemic it works throughout the body. It was originally It's supposed to be a treatment for chest pain, for a lack of circulation to the heart.

[00:40:16] In other words, there are clinical uses for Viagra that might surprise us. It can be good for women too. Women also have erectile tissues. It's just not, we don't think of it in the same way. Women also have endothelial cells that can also be insulin resistant. And so I think most women would hesitate to, to give Viagra to uh, an infant with hypoxic brain injury or to, to take it themselves. Well, and, and you should absolutely not do this. This is only under the, the direction of a medical doctor. But it opens up our understanding of what Viagra does, how it works and now clinicians have new options for treating circulatory disorders.

[00:41:07] Marker: The magic of your zxMitochondria


[00:41:07] Nathan Maingard: So you've mentioned a few times around the mitochondria and I think you just wrote an article about it, which I hadn't had a chance to read yet, but I'm curious how this all ties in. And as a brief preface, I. And this is something I'm just still learning some new stuff about, but basically Scott Carney, who wrote what doesn't kill us.

[00:41:25] He was like the guy who kind of first, well, one of the first people to really bring Wim Hof to the public eye, as a journalist. And he's at the moment, he's kind of. Almost, I won't say going after Wim Hof, but he's really shining a light on some of the other less pleasant aspects of the business behind Wim Hof.

[00:41:43] And one of those being that actually they don't do enough to discourage people from hyperventilating and then breath holding in water. And that's, there's actually been a lot of global deaths because of that. Things like that, but in this moment, I'm just thinking of it because my understanding was, and is at this point, although listening to Scott Carney recently talking to a scientist about brown fat, it sounds like... I'm not sure at this point if cold immersions over time do increase our brown fat reserves. I thought that they did, but either way, my understanding of brown fat is that the reason it's this different color, this darker color is that it's so rich in mitochondria. And now you're talking about and mitochondria, my understanding is like, it's the batteries of the body.

[00:42:20] It's where we store our energy that can then be released. And so the more brown fat, the more we have the capacity to store and release heat energy. Or just energy, like having energy. So I might be off on a few points there, not knowing a huge amount about it, but I would just love you to hear you speak to that, to the mitochondria.

[00:42:37] Why is mitochondria important? What's it doing in the body and how's cold immersion and strength training a part of that?

[00:42:43] Marker: Why Wim Hof method is causing deaths, and why you should never combine hyperventilation and water immersion


[00:42:43] Thomas P Seager: So we're going to get to mitochondria, but you've touched on two other topics that I want to comment on Scott Carney, Wim Hof, and then mitochondria. Scott and I talk a lot. We have a lot in common. And we are a lot different. And the fact that we can keep our dialogue going, I'm very grateful for talking with Scott, despite the things that we see differently.

[00:43:05] Scott's a journalist. I'm a scientist. And this means that we're coming at our Our storytelling and our knowledge sharing with a couple of different goals. I'm not speaking for Scott, but I think Scott's got some good reasons to be pissed. That is, as far as I can tell, he cares about Wim as a human being, they have a friendship.

[00:43:28] Wim's not just a source for Scott and his journalistics. They've known each other for years. And Scott thinks Wim not being treated right by his son and by the organization that now owns his name and his method. So that's one on a personal level. And Scott never really made an issue about it, even though I think he had personal feelings about it for a long time. Until he became really concerned about these deaths. This is the number one big issue. Do not combine hyperventilation with cold water immersion.

[00:44:02] The mechanisms are like this: when you hyperventilate, you purge your bloodstream of carbon dioxide. It is carbon dioxide inside the body that gives you the urge to breathe. It's not a lack of oxygen. It is a buildup of carbon dioxide. So for a long time, free divers, the divers that will, they don't use an underwater breathing apparatus. They just hold their breath and they dive and they do these incredible things and it's very dangerous. But for a long time free divers would practice hyperventilation so they could extend their dive, especially if they were naive and inexpert.

[00:44:35] And it's very dangerous because you can run out of oxygen in your bloodstream before the carbon dioxide levels come back up enough to give you the urge to breathe. So Scott has documented now 18 cases. And I believe him. These aren't like marginal, rumored, like he's looking for evidence of this. So people who have combined hyperventilation, from the Wim Hof method, with cold water immersion in the Wim Hof method.

[00:45:04] And if you, if you do this, if you put them too close together, or if you hyperventilate in the water, and you pass out from lack of oxygen, or an extended breath hold before you feel the urge to breathe, you're going to drown.

[00:45:17] There are some famous cases. Josh Waitzkin is one. He's the chess prodigy who wrote a wonderful book called the art of learning and he was practicing the Wim Hof method in New York city in a pool. He passed out in the pool and thank goodness he wasn't alone. They pulled him out. They resuscitated him. And I would hate for the world to lose him. I don't know him, but I've enjoyed his books, but there are at least 18 deaths. And so now Scott has personal feelings about Wim, and he's got these professional feelings about people need to know. Never combine hyperventilation or do breath holds in the water.

[00:45:56] And so it looks like Scott is down on cold exposure, he's down on the Wim Hof method. I don't think he is. He's careful in his videos to say that the Wim Hof method has changed his life, that there are these incredible health benefits. He's still a big believer in cold exposure, especially. The caveat is to get people to stop doing the hyperventilation and the cold water immersion together.

[00:46:24] Marker: The miracle of Brown fat and mitochondria


[00:46:24] Thomas P Seager: Now it comes to brown fat and mitochondria. Scott and the subject that he recently interviewed on YouTube is wrong. We have measurements to demonstrate this. And I haven't listened to the whole YouTube, it just went up a few days ago. But the thesis is in not a trailer, but some snippets that came out a few weeks ago, that, well, people aren't rodents. Congratulations on that revelation. You take a mice, or a mouse, or a rabbit, or a rodent, or whatever it is. You can do all the things you want with brown fat. You can dissect the brown fat. You can study all the pathways of UCPT1 decoupling and cold thermogenesis. You can do wonderful things with rodents that you can't do with people. People aren't rodents. But the,

[00:47:09] the thing is we don't need them to be.

[00:47:12] We don't need to extrapolate

[00:47:14] from animal models to understand brown fat.

[00:47:17] The brown fat denialism has been present for decades. Brown fat wasn't discovered, and I use that term very loosely, until about 11 years ago. We always knew that it was an infants because a substantial portion of an infant's body weight is brown fat. And I forget exactly what it is. Something like 18 or 20 percent of a baby is born. It's all brown fat. And the reason is because that's how they keep themselves warm. Infants don't have mature skeletal muscles, so they don't shiver. They only do non shivering thermogenesis. And if you go back all the way to Hippocrates, you know, he noticed that infants who are exposed to the cold in the wintertime did very well and were very healthy.

[00:48:02] So infants are built for cold exposure, but then we grow up. By the age 40 in the United States, 95 percent of the American population has zero detectable brown fat. And how does that happen? Because we don't go out in the cold, because we're not exposed to the cold.

[00:48:20] Scott has this great TEDx talk. He talks about Somerset coming out of the wilderness of Massachusetts to find the pilgrims, you know, in November or whenever it was. And it's cold and the pilgrims are all bundled up and Somerset's running around in a loin cloth. He's half naked. He was captured by English sailors when he was a child and they taught him to speak English. And then he escaped and taught the pilgrims, these are my people, you know, how to plant corn and eat lobster and live.

[00:48:51] And they couldn't understand why he didn't get cold. Because he was cold acclimated. And if we don't stay cold acclimated, we lose all of our brown fat. And then we say things like, Oh, I'm, I'm no good in the cold. No, I got to turn the thermostat up. My doctor says that I should bundle up and stay out of the cold.

[00:49:09] Our bodies are evolved to expect cold. Just like our bodies are evolved to expect exercise or certain nutrients in our diet, or expect sunshine. And if we don't get enough of it, it is no wonder that we lapse into a state of dis ease, of disorder.

[00:49:26] So, what do I mean by brown fat denialism? Well, brown fat was showing up on the P E T scans of cancer patients for a long time. They were looking for cancer inside the body and these sort of false signals would show up. The signals were brown fat. And people dismissed it and said, Oh, well, you know, that's not really, we don't think that's a tumor there. No, no, no. We're just focused over here.

[00:49:52] They didn't see it because they weren't looking for it. And it wasn't until about 11 years ago. That the researchers said, you know what? I think that is, I think that's brown fat. And everybody's like, you're right!

[00:50:03] For some reason, there's a prejudice in the human condition that says we don't want to be associated with the lab animals or with the children. We're all grown up now. We don't have any more brown fat. Now I take the opposite view. Take me back in time to childhood. You know, that sounds wonderful to me. Susanna Soberg is the most popular, the most famous of this. She did her study of winter swimmers in Denmark. She found brown fat. She compared those who do regular cold exposure with those who do not. Brown fat pops right off the scans.

[00:50:43] Marker: How cold immersion and brown fat can help regulate your thyroid


[00:50:43] Thomas P Seager: I don't know why Scott is interviewing people that says Brown fat's overrated, there's no such thing, but brown fat is not just for cold thermogenesis. It is also a secretory organ. It produces more T3 thyroid hormone than the thyroid or any other organ in the body does.

[00:51:05] Ben Bickman is really good on this. He did a recent post. If you don't have enough brown fat, because the brown fat and the thyroid work together. They signal and modulate one another. If you don't have enough brown fat, your thyroid tends towards dysregulation, whether it's hyper or hypo. One of the ways to bring your thyroid back in line is to get your cold exposure and recruit new brown fat. There are now scientists who become brown fat specialists. The, and evidently, Scott's interview subject, isn't talking to the right guys.

[00:51:40] You are correct that the brown fat is packed with mitochondria, thousands of mitochondria, whereas white fat might have hardly any brown fat has all of this mitochondria, not because it stores energy, not because it acts like a battery. It is an energy converter. So, glucose or triglycerides will be transported inside the brown fat cell. They will reach the mitochondria and the mitochondria will do well one of two things But they'll convert the glucose or the fats Into a different form of energy.

[00:52:16] Now that energy could be heat, that's the non shivering cold thermogenesis, or it could be ATP. And ATP is an energy carrier that enables life, whether it's growth or exercise or wound repair. ATP is the essential energy carrier that travels from the mitochondria to the cells that need that energy. So think of the mitochondria more like, the engine in a car. The engine converts the chemical exergy in gasoline into mechanical work and it makes the car go well. Mitochondria will convert the chemical energy of glucose or triglycerides into different forms of energy. That's your body needs, whether it's heat or ATP for growth, wound repair, exercise.

[00:53:03] Nathan Maingard: I'm so glad I asked you about that because it didn't make sense to me. And I had, I only just, because as you said, that episode really just came out and I was cleaning the house two days ago, three days ago, and I started listening to it and I listened, not to the whole thing yet, but, but a lot of it. And, and the scientist was just saying, you know, the brown fat thing is, and I was like, but I feel the difference.

[00:53:24] So, and then I was going to ask you, well, what is the difference attributable to, if it's not the brown fat, because my experience has been, especially this last winter. So we're in South Africa, we're just coming to the end of our winter. And I, I have actually lost, almost lost count of the amount of times where I'll be sitting out with some people and I'll be in a t shirt and everyone else has beanies and jackets and just is wrapped up.

[00:53:45] And I'm sitting there just actually super comfortable. I can feel the cold. I know that it's cold, but I just don't feel as worried about, there's something in my body that's just kind of like. It's actually nice. It's enjoyable. There's a sense of alertness that I experienced. So I really was a tribute our now and I continue to attribute that to the brown fat reserves that I built up from my very consistent ice bath practice over the last like year or so.

[00:54:10] Thomas P Seager: you have a countryman Tim Noakes PhD MD. You know, and he's on Twitter quite a lot and I follow him, but before COVID, before Twitter became a really big thing. Tim is an exercise physiologist. So when Lewis Pugh, he's this British, you know, extreme cold open water swimmer. When Lewis Pugh wanted to train for a record breaking Antarctic swim, where does he go? To South Africa.

[00:54:40] And he connects with Tim Noakes and he says, doc, will you supervise my training? I need somebody with your expertise in extreme exercise to watch what I'm doing and to make sure I stay safe and to challenge me in the right way so I can break this open water, cold water swim record.

[00:55:00] Noakes says that's fine. Noakes observes in Lewis Pugh's physiology an increase in his core temperature before he gets into the water. And he coined this phrase anticipatory thermogenesis. Now, how does that happen? How is it that before Lewis Pugh, who right now is swimming the Hudson River in New York State, he started in Manhattan and he swam, you know, 300 some miles up into the Adirondacks to swim to the source of the Hudson River. It's remarkable. And he does it to draw attention to the environment and to clean waters. It's a wonderful thing. But how would he raise his body temperature before he even gets in?

[00:55:44] Well, brown fat is activated by the nervous system. Ordinarily, thermoreceptors on your skin would sense the cold, and they would signal up to your hypothalamus. Emergency! And the hypothalamus would say, crap, we got to activate that brown fat. We got to get some vasal constriction going. We have to defend the body against the cold temperature and keep the core warm. That's ordinarily, but Lewis Pugh is so experienced in his cold water swimming that his body has learned to anticipate it.

[00:56:15] He can activate the brown fat unconsciously, but only with his thoughts. He knows that he's about to get into the cold water, and his hypothalamus is like, we're getting ready. It's because brown fat is signaled through the central nervous system. It means it is controlled by your thoughts, not by the thermoreceptors, not directly.

[00:56:37] And Lewis must have been unconsciously warming his body. He's not shivering. So this is not skeletal muscle shivering thermogenesis is non shivering thermogenesis that raises his, you know, I'm in Fahrenheit, but if I remember correctly, Tim Noakes raised, measured like a degree and a half Celsius increase in his core body temperature before he even gets into the cold water.

[00:57:01] Think about the power that we have, that Wim Hof claims he has, and he's trained other people to have, for our thoughts to control our physiology. The possibilities that this opens up. Why anybody would say, well, you know, you can measure brown fat in a PET scan and we can notice when it's activated and taking up glucose. And we have all these people with these experiences of non shivering cold thermogenesis, and we can even, using our thoughts, raise our core body temperature. But I don't think it's really a thing.

[00:57:38] Don't be that guy. Who says there's no scientific study that proves what's happening to you is actually happening to you. Those guys show up, you know, on Twitter all the time and many of them claim to have medical credentials and they tell me you can't have T levels of over a thousand, ice baths don't work. I don't block them. I don't reply. Okay, sometimes I get a little sarcastic, but usually I'm just going to put a little like next to their thing and move on. Because, I will not let some expert deny your experience. That's what's happening to you.

[00:58:22] And don't, don't question your experience because of a YouTube interview. Ask instead, how could you explain this happening? And he might say, well, here's an alternative explanation. All right. I'm listening. Tell me the mechanisms that explain to me my experience. Do not deny my experience. And I can't honestly say that Scott Carney source is doing that. He's not speaking to you, Nathan. What I'm trying to emphasize is that the only thing that matters is your n equals one experiment.

[00:58:59] The study doesn't matter. The statistics don't matter. You know, you could get your p value 0.01, you know, whatever your statistical confidence is. And that says nothing to a specific subject. Are you in the 99 percent that responded or are you in the 1 that didn't? You don't know until you try.

[00:59:17] And so, you know, if you're on the beach in South Africa and people are like, they got the campfire going and they're all bundled up and you're like, this is great. I feel good. And they say, how do you do that? You can say, well, I don't know. I think it's the ice baths. I think I'm cold acclimated. Have you ever heard about brown fat? Have you tried? And when the guy says, yeah, I've been doing ice baths for six straight weeks every day, and I'm still cold as hell. Then, then maybe we can say, Oh, there might be, maybe I'm wrong about the mechanisms.

[00:59:49] You will never meet that guy. There will never be anybody around that campfire saying, I've been doing ice baths every day for six weeks and, and I'm still cold all the time because that's not the way our bodies work. It takes about seven days to and these, these are human studies, but the timeframe is similar in the mouse models, seven days to recruit new brown fat and to become cold acclimated. And if you're measuring the temperature of your ice bath, you're going to notice a difference because 45 degrees just isn't going to feel cold anymore.

[01:00:24] Nathan Maingard: Okay. I have two more questions for you. One of them is quite a straightforward one, which is anyone listening now who wants to find you out there in the interwebs, where can they find you? And what are some projects or are there any projects or things that you'd like them to know about?

[01:00:39] Thomas P Seager: So a lot of my writing is at morozkoforge.Com. And most people have trouble spelling it. It's a Russian fairy tale, the Morozko character, he was the winter warlock. And so we, we kind of screwed up when we named the Icebath company. We named it after a metaphor and we would have done a lot better if we called it like, best ice bath for or something, you know, very literal. And Google would've loved it and people would've found us, but it is okay. We are now the number one Google result for four different misspellings of Moroz Co. You'll find my writing if you go to moroz coe and you click on journal. You see a lot of articles.

[01:01:20] The most recent one is about what is the right order of things. I was talking with Mike Mutzel from High Intensity Health, and he just did a video saying there's a lot of benefits to sauna after exercise. And it got me thinking. What if we did ice bath, exercise, sauna? Well, if we did it in that order, it would be completely different from what everybody else is doing, and it would seem exactly like when I was a kid.

[01:01:46] And you spend your day, like, body surfing at the beach, and then you get all this cold and this exercise, you come in, what do you do? You build a fire. You grill your fish and your linguisa sausage and whatever else is on there and you sit with your friends in the glow of the, I'm like, this is exactly the way our ancestors do it.

[01:02:08] Cold, exercise, sauna. Give it a shot. That's the most recent article. So you can find me there, but you can also find me in another, a few other places, seagertp. substack. com S E A G E R T P. And if you're curious about other things going on in my life, I like write about education and relationships and a whole bunch of random stuff that makes it very difficult to find an audience because people go to SeagerTp. They don't know what they're gonna find. Are they gonna find something on you know, an excerpt from my book? Are they gonna find like a sample chapter from uncommon cold? Are they gonna find an article about the difference between boundaries and ultimatums in your relationships? It's confusing for an audience.

[01:02:50] And I put the stuff out there anyway, because I enjoy writing it and I often get good feedback. So those are the two places to find me. And what you really care about is engineering and in particular ethics and engineering business practices and resilient infrastructure. And you can find me on YouTube where I post some of my lectures on economics and Infrastructure.

[01:03:13] So I'm a bit all over the place Nathan. And for this audience, probably the best place to go is Morozco Forge, but where a lot of people have been finding me is on Instagram. Again, S E A G E R T P. And if you're looking for me there, don't be surprised if I disappear. Medium has pulled my articles down. Twitter had me on, you know, their shadow ban timeout for a week. I say a lot of things that make my dean angry at me. I don't own Instagram, you know, who does. And someday I might say something that just like Tim Noakes, when he got canceled up or kicked off of Twitter, that gets me kicked off of these social media platforms too.

[01:04:01] Nathan Maingard: Well, thank you for sharing as always. I so appreciate your knowledge and your passion and, and making it so accessible for the rest of us who, who don't, you know, read studies or know how to do all that kind of stuff. So I really, I've gained so much through just following your advice in my own life. So the final question, which you've been asked before, because you're a return guest, but in this moment, when you hear the words, we are already free, what comes up for you?

[01:04:29] Thomas P Seager: There's some strong feelings. Because part of it, there's a little child in me that says, no we're not. You know, if we were already free then I wouldn't be sanctioned, muzzled, criticized and canceled. I'm not free. This whole bull crap about freedom of speech, but not freedom of reach. You know, so there's an objection and I sense this.

[01:04:57] It's something childlike because if you take, we are already free.

[01:05:03] And you think about how people like David Foster Wallace might have reacted. What, in what way are we... we are free to choose our own thoughts. We're free to choose our own meaning, and we often get caught up in the traps of allowing other people to choose that meaning for us.

[01:05:23] So when the child in me sort of quiets down, I remember Viktor Frankl. I remember Maslow's Pyramid, and I call my substack Self Actual Engineering. So it's, it's after Maslow. Civil engineers, we always work at the bottom of Maslow's Pyramid with the food and the shelter and the clean water and things like that.

[01:05:45] But Viktor Frankl, who is a contemporary of Maslow, it's just that when Maslow was publishing his hierarchy, Frankl was in a Nazi concentration camp. When Frankl was liberated, and he published his manuscript, it eventually became a book called man's search for meaning. He said, we can suffer almost any depravity, as long as we have a reason why. Because we get to choose what things mean.

[01:06:16] This is beyond the self actualization that Maslow put at the top of his pyramid, that the U. S. Army used in the, you know, the 80s, be all you can be kind of a slogan. It goes beyond that. It says we can choose what things mean to us. We can choose our thoughts and Frankel's experience proved it.

[01:06:39] So sometimes it comes up when we're in the ice bath, we get in and by the way, no coercion. You're never going to hear me with like a bullhorn, you know, breathe motherfucker or something. It might work for other guys. I'm never going to do that. You get into the ice bath and you come out of your own volition, no bullying, no coercion, nothing like that. But you get in there and right away, every cell in your body is saying, we are going to die. Get us out of here.

[01:07:03] You have the freedom of choice to say this is what cold feels like. You hang in there for another second, toes. You know, we're not quite done here yet. It's gonna be another minute. And it's all gonna be fine. You choose what it means when you get in the water.

[01:07:21] Nathan Maingard: As we wrap up this invigorating episode of we are already free. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Dr. Thomas P Seager for diving into this chilling yet thrilling world of cold immersion therapy with us.

[01:07:33] His insights and personal experiences have truly illuminated the potent natural remedies that lie just beneath the surface of our daily lives. Please find links to his work in the show notes at or on your pod app now.

[01:07:47] Thank you to you, dear listener, for joining me on this beautiful journey. I hope this episode has sparked a curiosity and an eagerness to explore the profound benefits of embracing the cold, not just for physical wellbeing, but as a pathway to holistic wellness and a more authentic, vibrant life.

[01:08:04] We've delved into the transformative power of cold therapy for boosting testosterone, enhancing fertility and sexual health, and even it's intriguing role in thyroid function and overall metabolic health.

[01:08:15] These insights aren't just about understanding our bodies better. They're about reconnecting with nature's wisdom and reclaiming our innate vitality.

[01:08:23] If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone who could benefit from these natural empowering health strategies. sharing this knowledge is more than just spreading information.

[01:08:33] It's about fostering a community of wellbeing, awareness, and personal growth. Your support in sharing this episode helps me and this podcast to reach and inspire many more individuals on their journey to holistic health and authentic living.

[01:08:47] Before we end, let's take a moment to acknowledge a familiar morning, struggle. You know the scene, the alarm buzzers for the fourth time, and you're still snuggled under your warm covers, reluctant to face the day. You reach out half asleep and suddenly find yourself lost in the endless scroll of your phone, feeling even more drained than when you first woke up .The day looms ahead yet you're already wishing for a reset button.

[01:09:12] But what if your mornings could be, well, almost as revitalizing as a cold plunge. Imagine, starting your day, not with grogginess, but with a surge of vitality and clarity. Kind of similar to that rejuvenating effects of the cold immersion that we've explored in this episode.

[01:09:26] This is where my five day morning practice challenge comes in as simple, yet transformative way to redefine your mornings. Just as Dr. Seager has discussed the power of embracing the cold for holistic health. This challenge is about embracing a new morning routine that sets the tone for a day full of purpose, energy, and focus. It's not just about waking up. It's about awakening.

[01:09:48] Each day of the challenge guides you through practices that invigorates your body and mind, preparing you to meet the day vibrantly.

[01:09:55] So are you ready to take the plunge into a more fulfilling morning ritual? Join me in the free five day morning practice challenge and transform your mornings from mundane to meaningful. Go to already Or visit the show notes now to begin your journey.

[01:10:11] Thanks again for being on this journey with me, dear listeners, stay tuned for more episodes where we continue to explore the beauty of life and how we can connect more wholly with that. And as always, please remember, we are already free.


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